Clearing the Air

[MaydaX]

 

I'm sure some know about the PBBans decision to block the GGC website from accessing our banlists. We have done so for more than one reason but the biggest reason is they are encouraging admins they do not need to stream to PBBans which even led to some server admins dropping PBBans entirely. Their reason for that suggestion is because they import and enforce our bans anyway.

 

We blocked their servers from accessing our webserver and formally informed them to cease downloading our banlist to which they ignored and downloaded them using other means. We asked them for a second time to do so but again they refuse to acknowledge our request. We even displayed a similar message as this post to any traffic originating from their website but they added a redirect service anonym.to to bypass this message. So we are now posting this information to the public.

 

Shortly after we blocked them they removed the feed we used to import their bans and displayed "- Please contact the webmaster -" instead. That is why they are no longer included in our EBL. We remove any site that we cannot get an up to date banlist for because unbanned guids wouldn't be updated on our end which means innocent players would be kicked and we do not want that to occur. We respected their decision and have not tried to import them using other methods.

 

PBBans imports and enforces bans as well but we do not suggest anyone drop streaming to another site. The EBL was not created to replace anyone. In fact it was created out of my laziness. I was tired of checking the same GUID on many different anti-cheat websites so I made the EBL to check those sites automatically and if a match was found then provide a link to the website the guid is banned on. It was never my intention to replace any 3rd party anti-cheat website with the EBL in order to gain streaming exclusivity. In fact we often promote server admins to multi-stream to others to make a better anti-cheat community.

 

There have been other incidents that we ignored over the many months because we didn't want to start an AC war. Only people who win in those are the cheaters. Since streaming servers is what makes PBBans so effective, we will not allow anyone to import our ban lists and have them encourage users to cease streaming or not sign up with PBBans because the server admin can use an enforce bans option. Without streaming servers, fewer cheaters get caught and that is against our goal. I'm sure server admins know what it's like to have a player come in your server and spam their server info or clan website in a hope to attract players away from your server. It's disrespectful to say the least.

 

We didn't want to resort to this but in the end we have to protect ourselves and our goals. Server admins can stream to PBBans, AON, GGC and others simultaneously therefore we feel this decision is best for us but doesn't affect the anti-cheat community.

[Twiebie]

We blocked their servers from accessing our webserver and formally informed them to cease downloading our banlist to which they ignored and downloaded them using other means. We asked them for a second time to do so but again they refuse to acknowledge our request. We even displayed a similar message as this post to any traffic originating from their website but they added a redirect service anonym.to to bypass this message. So we are now posting this information to the public.

 

That's a rude and inappropriate way of fetching data after sending out a formal request asking to stop downloading.

 

Shame this went the way it did, but I think the decision made by PBBans on this matter is the right one.

 

According to the votes/replies in the topic/poll regarding the downloadable banlists that MaydaX put up this morning, the admins that stream to PBBans will fortunately not really suffer from this.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Twiebie

[HappyHarry]

As you know, there are always two sides of the same coin. It's a sad day for the whole gaming community, cause this article is nothing more than a start of war from your side. We are really disappointed about your reaction and will comment those things from our point of view.

[kraxus187]

As you know, there are always two sides of the same coin. It's a sad day for the whole gaming community, cause this article is nothing more than a start of war from your side. We are really disappointed about your reaction and will comment those things from our point of view.

 

While not intending to start a war of words or finger point....

 

That you choose to refer to MaydaX's actions as a "reaction" infers that there was something done on the part of GSC to respond to...so why would you say that he is starting the "war" ??

He chose, as is his and PBBans right, to restrict access to was is in effect "work product". Countless hours of work by MaydaX and the other staff of PBBans...all voluntary...went into the required programming and research that screens the servers that stream here in addition to enforcing bans from EA and (on a reciprical basis) other sites.Its PBBans banlist and they can share access with who they like...or not as the case may be.

From MaydaX's account...and I see no denial from you...GSC went out of thier way to bypass his efforts to block you in an attempt to gain access to the banlist anyway...again, how is he or PBBans at fault ??

 

The A/C community are all supposed to be on the same side...this has a look of GSC trying to start an ego war, and I for one would hope you'd keep it in your own forums...because I'm sure we all have better things to do the troll each other picking a fight.

 

I know I do .

[Everson]

No doubt there will likely be differing opinions on the other side of the coin, however, the staff here will always work to protect the interests of PBBans and it's operations throughout the gaming community. This is not an open invitation to start an AC war or a surgical first strike against GGC - it is a factual announcement in response to recent incidents which we feel have attempted to undermine PBBans and devalue our position within the community.

 

Sooner or later with an ongoing saga you reach the phrase 'enough is enough' and that's where our staff are universally opinionated. We don't wish to start an AC war and neither do we have any intention to air any further incidents from the past into the public arena.

[HappyHarry]

@kraxus187

 

You are judging about us without knowing details nor knowing our point of view. Things will clear up after our official statement. We won't comment any accusation in this kind of way.

[Shockfactor]

Point of all this was and is still the main purpose as to them saying NOT to do this off there dime and you all went out of the way to do it anyway. There are two sides yes, But when one says no and the other does it anyway, who at fault? I mean, is this children s play time?

 

You should have respected there decision and followed threw with there earlier requests and im very sure that this post would not even be here now.But you went the way of a child that didnt get his piece of candy and tried to steal it anyway. I see that the more things change, the more they stay the same. I side on behalf of PBBans on this without a question in my head..

 

Now that you got your hand smacked for getting in the candy jar, your going to toss ,"But he started it" card? I have used PBBans for many many years and although I am not streaming at the moment, I will always come back here first to start protecting my servers, and no offence, I have not even seen a need to stream elsewhere.

[buttscratcher]

This one should probably get locked down, and any discussion between GGC & PBBans staffs be had in private. This is headed in a counter productive direction. Just my $.02

 

 

 

butt

[=WH=Mav63]

This one should probably get locked down, and any discussion between GGC & PBBans staffs be had in private. This is headed in a counter productive direction. Just my $.02

 

 

 

Agree totally this is between PB staff and GGC staff, anyway i thought at the end of the day were are all here to fight the cheats and hackers not each other.

[Everson]

This announcement has come about after several requests to GGC; we attempted to resolve issues behind closed doors however those attempts failed.

 

As we are currently discussing the removal of our public banlists, amongst other possible ideas, it would be hard for us to do any of that without getting asked the same question of 'why?' over and over again. We've always attempted to be transparent with the community that we support and this is us being transparent with you.

 

This topic will remain in place for people within the community to share their views on the subject: we're reading, we're listening, we're discussing. Our goal remains keeping the community cheat-free and with that announcements like this sometimes need to be made.

[MaydaX]

we are all here to fight the cheats and hackers not each other.

 

I 100% agree and we could have posted about a lot of other issues from the past few years but we didn't think it was fair to paint anyone in the anti-cheat community in a negative way. Long gone are the days where a server admin had to choose what site they wanted to stream to because the repository method only supported streaming to one site at a time. So in the end it doesn't help the anti-cheat community as a whole when server admins are discouraged from streaming to PBBans and others because another system enforces bans from external sources.

[PartyPooper]

As we are currently discussing the removal of our public banlists,

 

I hope this won't be the case as it would effect more than just GGC's access, however, you have to do what's in your best interests I suppose.

[Piggy]

Another Victory for the Hackers.

 

Can't we behave ourselves and all focus on the real goal here.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Piggy

[Everson]

I hope this won't be the case as it would effect more than just GGC's access, however, you have to do what's in your best interests I suppose.

As you don't have access to the SGA thread would you like to PM me your thoughts on how you think this would affect non-SGAs?

 

And why those affected are unable to stream to PBBans and use the Enforce Bans featured integrated within our PBUCON Hub?

[xX_Renegade_Xx]

I'm sure some know about the PBBans decision to block the GGC website from accessing our banlists. We have done so for more than one reason but the biggest reason is they are encouraging admins they do not need to stream to PBBans which even led to some server admins dropping PBBans entirely. Their reason for that suggestion is because they import and enforce our bans anyway.

 

 

As you know, there are always two sides of the same coin. It's a sad day for the whole gaming community, cause this article is nothing more than a start of war from your side. We are really disappointed about your reaction and will comment those things from our point of view.

 

I agree, their are 2 sides to every story but surely it makes more sense to work with another A/C site than against them? If what MaydaX says is true then I guess the term 'we're all in it together to catch cheaters' only applies if those admins are not streaming here but to your site instead? That makes no sense to me, feel free to enlighten me.

[KEIOS]

You can read our statement on our site. And you might think about the effects of language barriers and lack of communications as well. To keep it short:

1. We were not informed in time, that our access got canceled and

2. We do encourage our admins to dual- even multistream to other Anticheat Communitys.

 

Together against Cheaters - thats what "Gemeinsam gegen Cheater" = GGC stands for...

[kraxus187]

Does this mean that any bans already on PBBans banlist that were marked as GGC bans are no longer in effect (and vice versa) or does this only effect any new bans that each side enacts from now on ??

[xX_Renegade_Xx]

You can read our statement on our site.

 

Yes I just have, one section from that post:

 

We will not return the like and try to polish our image by smudging PBBans. Mistakes have been made on both sides. Technically and humanly. By Individuals who misinterpreted the contest between likeminded as a rivalry between competitors and misunderstandings that occur when crossing language barriers. So we stay on course and emphasize that the fight against Cheaters is only possible when doing it together and encourage every Server Admin explicitly to get every Protection for their Servers they can get and to support every Anticheat Community they choose, by all means. We are all like-minded Volunteers with the same goal. We are all putting a lot of effort in our Projects and only the Cheaters do benefit, when misunderstanding, lack of communication, but also envy, defiance and arrogance tear us apart.

 

I don't know the details and I'm not going to speculate but if that is true and mistakes have been made on both sides then surely you can both reach a compromise?

 

At least for the sake of this:

 

So we stay on course and emphasize that the fight against Cheaters is only possible when doing it together

[MaydaX]

Does this mean that any bans already on PBBans banlist that were marked as GGC bans are no longer in effect (and vice versa) or does this only effect any new bans that each side enacts from now on ??

 

We removed all the GGC bans from the EBL after we could not import them anymore to prevent unbanned players from being kicked. But if anyone streaming to PBBans thought the GGC banlist helped on their server then they should stream to them as well. That's also the reason we asked GGC to remove our bans as we had a few unbanned players ask by they were still being kicked. As time went on that would increase.

 

I don't know the details and I'm not going to speculate but if that is true and mistakes have been made on both sides then surely you can both reach a compromise?

 

At least for the sake of this:

 

The EBL isn't required anymore it's just a luxery. Game-Violations removed their banlists for download and require people to stream in order to use them. PunkBusted requires admins stream their servers to access the live banlist for years now too. So I see little impact of not sharing banlists between our two sites. Admins can stream to both and it makes a more effective system.

[Sixshot]

Two sides to a coin. I've known that for a few months now and I'm still wondering just wtf happened.

 

Here's the thing that really raises my question. GGC states that they were not given enough lead time in order to respond. So I wonder how much of a lead time did Maydax gave to the folks at GGC on the matter.

 

I ain't gonna probe into this entire matter. Just that what I read from this particular thread really raises question(s).

 

I doubt it's going to affect me in the end, since I do multi-streaming thanks to the PBUCON system. Like anyone would have said, if you need those additional banlist, just sign up and stream to them as well. GGC also uses PBUCON so it takes little time and effort to set up a secondary stream.

[Everson]

Here's the thing that really raises my question. GGC states that they were not given enough lead time in order to respond. So I wonder how much of a lead time did Maydax gave to the folks at GGC on the matter.

Email 1: Sept 2nd, 2011;

Email 2: Oct 16th 2011.

 

After the second email was sent we implemented a message which would display based on a referral from ggc-stream.com

 

http://www.pbbans.com/err_msgs/ggc.shtml

 

Traffic originating from GGC-Stream.com is now redirected to this message.

 

PBBans blocked the GGC website from accessing our banlists and has repeatedly requested they cease importing our MBi. We have done so for more than one reason but the biggest reason is they are encouraging admins they do not need to stream to PBBans which even led to some server admins dropping PBBans entirely. Their reason for that suggestion is because they import and enforce our bans anyway.

 

We import and enforce bans as well but we do not suggest anyone drop streaming to another site. It was never our intention to replace any 3rd party anti-cheat website with the EBL in order to gain streaming exclusivity. In fact we often promote server admins to multi-stream to others to make a better anti-cheat community.

 

There have been other incidents that we ignored over the many months because we didn't want to start an AC war. Only people who win in those are the cheaters. Since streaming servers is what makes PBBans so effective, we will not allow anyone to import our ban lists and have them encourage users to cease streaming or not sign up with PBBans because the server admin can use an enforce bans option. Without streaming servers, fewer cheaters get caught and that is against our goal. I'm sure server admins know what it's like to have a player come in your server and spam their server info or clan website in a hope to attract players away from your server. It's disrespectful to say the least.

 

We didn't want to resort to this but in the end we have to protect ourselves and our goals. Server admins can stream to PBBans, AON, GGC and others simultaneously therefore we feel this decision is best for us but doesn't affect the anti-cheat community.

GGC then implemented anonymous linking which we interpreted as an attempt to circumvent the display of the message; thus resulting in our position now.

[Nik21]

GGC statement: http://www.ggc-stream.com/news/124/PBBans+cancels+Partnership+with+GGC

 

My opinion:

After reading both statements, I see that as an egoistic step from PBBans. I´m just a normal User with intrests in Anti-cheat. But as i saw this, i was really shocked. I mean, both AC networks have their advantage (if i was a streaming admin, I´d prefer the site with the bigger banlist, depends on the game, or multi stream), but the external banlists were really great, i think.. multi streamed servers are kinda laggy.

I mean, pbbans got the bans from ggc, and ggc the bans from pbbans. Whats the problem? As far as i see, ggc trys to get the best anti cheat networks together, but pbbans trys to make a conquest; getting their site the most popular, quantity over quality.

 

This is not the right way ... we aren´t here to fight each other, we are here to fight against cheaters.Together.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Nik21

[MaydaX]

After reading both statements, I see that as an egoistic step from PBBans.

 

I don't see why some people are upset when PsB and Game-Violations are essentially doing the same thing by requiring admins stream to use their complete banlists.

 

multi streamed servers are kinda laggy.

 

Multi-streaming has existed for years now and I honestly don't hear much about it causing lag. RCON tools for BC2 that spam pb_sv_plist would cause more lag than multi-streaming. The amount of data sent is very small.

 

As far as i see, ggc trys to get the best anti cheat networks together, but pbbans trys to make a conquest; getting their site the most popular, quantity over quality.

 

We started that trend years ago with the EBL and PsB. But honestly it's didn't work out the way we hoped in the end. But we respect each parties decision in each case.

[Aura6S]

Maydax

 

the biggest reason is they are encouraging admins they do not need to stream to PBBans

 

KEIOS

 

We do encourage our admins to dual- even multistream to other Anticheat Communitys

 

I have no reason to disbelieve either so the only other explanation is indeed crossed wires/language barrier, yes?

 

So who's going to man up here? Situations like this just further distance game devs from using PB, instead running straight into the outstreched arms of VAC.

[buttscratcher]

So who's going to man up here?

Based on past experience, its probably going to take Surfy and Vanessa to be the ones that "man up".

 

 

butt