PBBans Being Strict

[LaserSights]

I think gaming websites that support gamers with their leagues and ladders are appreciated. I agree the anti-cheat cause is serious to the true gamers especially during competition with cash prizes or simply putting money on a match like for example Fragged Nation allows money to be put on matches in their "Prove It" section. FN also allows match creators to choose requirements for the match and is not strict on applying for competition or using strict anti-cheat streaming like PBBans. I agree the problem of cheating should be taken seriously but I don't agree on how PBBans goes about looking into cheaters. I seriously don't see what a clan website, roster and how a clan or team organizes itself has to do with game servers when they are entirely different data bases and servers are dedicated and not connected to websites. I think there should be strict procedures when handling cheaters but I think it should not interfere with anything else other than a players gaming as far as playing fair or cheating. You talk about quality before quantity, I think this affects the quality of service for gamers serious about supporting the anti-cheat cause. Why else would they be here if they were not serious. I guess Punkbuster.com will be good enough for me since you guys here at PBBans are going to lay down the law and keep my server inactive until I create a entire clan just to stream my competition server on behalf of supporting anti-cheat. If you decide to bend the rules I am always glad to stream here at PBBans.

 

 

P.S. http://www.pbbans.com/forums/index.php?app=tickets&showticket=101&st=0&gopid=446&&do=findComment&comment=446

[MaydaX]

I seriously don't see what a clan website, roster and how a clan or team organizes itself has to do with game servers when they are entirely different data bases and servers are dedicated and not connected to websites.

 

There was no website requirement for many years and in Sept 2008 a person decided to add a server and stream false data to us which prompted us to make changes to our requirements.

 

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1209/pbbfakebans.png

 

Even others got hit with the same thing last year:

http://i54.tinypic.com/10g0g03.png

http://i51.tinypic.com/2pzyx6o.jpg

 

Seems the above links are now dead. Images attached in a later post.

 

Our increased streaming requirements won't completely stop those people from gaining access to our site however it does reduce the risk. Some say what is the point if those people can still get in. Well if someone wants to really steal a car they will but that doesn't mean the owner should leave the doors unlocked and the keys in the ignition because it won't help if a person really wants to steal it.

 

Many staff members here would love to allow anyone to stream as it was before but that means a greater risk of being sent false data and it's not worth it.

[buttscratcher]

I guess Punkbuster.com will be good enough for me since you guys here at PBBans are going to lay down the law and keep my server inactive until I create a entire clan just to stream my competition server on behalf of supporting anti-cheat.

 

Theres always GGC or other anticheat groups.

 

Personally I appreciate the streaming requirment and the work the staff puts into the pre-streaming checks, as well as ending streaming for groups that dont follow the rules later down the line. Good luck in finding a better fit, as well as a more through anti cheat option.

 

 

edit. typing before coffee. cant spell when awake either.

Edited January 2, 2012 by buttscratcher

[Buff]

As member of the XcF community you should have known better how we run things in here.

They have been streaming here since 2008.

[Hillhopper]

He is a member of our site but not a member of our clan. Just wanted to be clear. And yes pbbans has their requirments in place for good reasons. Might be a few more hoops to jump through, but in the end in my opinion it is well worth it.

[Buff]

I know Hillhopper :)

[LaserSights]

I been streaming here for years too and I never had a problem activating or reactivating my account. Instead of simply reactivating my account since I been here for years and had no problem with cheats I get the PBBans law stamped on my post. As I said I am with the anti-cheat effort all gamers put up against cheaters. I been pc gaming online for 11 years and I never stat-padded of the least and never ever cheated. You don't have to explain how important it is for strict anti-cheat procedures. I just want to know exactly how your procedure stops cheaters or hackers because as you said if a cheater or hacker is able to cheat or breach your system then your procedures are useless (never the less I streamed here for years). You say just because a hacker may be powerful enough to breach your system that doesn't mean you should leave the doors open with a red carpet (you said this in other words). I'm not saying open the doors with a red carpet, I'm saying you have loyal anti-cheat supporters and you have idiot hackers. Hackers do what they do and loyal gamers move on to safer gaming grounds like anti-cheat streaming. If a hacker is going to hack and breach your system then it is what it is and it will be done no matter what and having the contact information of streaming admins and their members on a clan website is your least troubles. You want streaming admins to basicly have a home website and a entire clan roster setup just to join a 1v1 or 2v2 ladder or tournament that requires streaming here. Put aside the technical stuff the average gamer knows and surely you realize it's not likely all gamers have what it takes to start up their own clan. I been around many clans during my 11 years and I not with them now for reasons that is another reason you can't always have a clan. All you got is your pc and gameserver host. If everybody started their own clan to assure a account here at PBBans for streaming we wouldn't have enough players to join a clan because they would have their own clan.

 

Just to confirm Hillhopper is my old TWL 2v2 armor ladder partner and I was the streaming admin keeping our match server streaming to PBBans and PsB. I didn't just put together a quick roster on a free website just to stream here. As you know TWL 2v2 ladders had a small roster and that would be the few members on my roster. But that wouldn't be good enough today.

 

Just to be clear I am not trying to confuse or be against PBBans. I just think streaming here should be somehow powerful enough to stop cheaters and hackers but at the same time userfriendly and easy for any gamer to support the anti-cheat community by setting up their servers to stream here at PBBans.

Edited January 2, 2012 by LaserSights

[surfy]

I think both fozzer (in your ticket) and Maydax have already replied to you informatively. Nothing is going to change here. If you cannot understand why the requirements are in place then maybe you don't truly understand the issues raised.

 

http://www.pbbans.com/forums/streaming-requirements-t147669.html/

 

Facts speak for themselves, our requirements have been working and although it may be extremely frustrating for you our quality of service and integrity is not going to be compromised for the sake of a few people who want their lives made easier. You may not agree with our stance but its not changing any time soon.

[LaserSights]

I think both fozzer (in your ticket) and Maydax have already replied to you informatively. Nothing is going to change here. If you cannot understand why the requirements are in place then maybe you don't truly understand the issues raised.

 

http://www.pbbans.com/forums/streaming-requirements-t147669.html/

 

Facts speak for themselves' date=' our requirements have been working and although it may be extremely frustrating for you our quality of service and integrity is not going to be compromised for the sake of a few people who want their lives made easier. You may not agree with our stance but its not changing any time soon.[/quote']

 

Obviously you don't care what I'm saying because you worked so hard here at PBBans and feel I'm putting all that down. So I will end this conversation if we all agree to not reply here or lock this thread. It doesn't matter to me because yes there are other anti-cheat streaming websites fortunately. Do what you will but don't say I didn't try. As for me compromising your service and integrity just because I want to make my life easier. You could have used more nicer words like "it's our website and if it fails then it fails but it's how we want it to be". You don't know me enough to have the right to say I'm only considerate about myself (you said this using different words).

 

 

 

P.S. Just to be clear I only reply here to have a friendly conversation since the issue is still active. Waiting for PsB to get back up, recently they are down but not out for the count.

[wildroo]

Honestly i agree with the OP here that PBBANS are a bit overboard with the process and clearly that turns people away.

 

but it is your choice and with other providers offering easier alternatives to PBBANS then they will grow and PBBANS will loose more servers streaming through them.

 

I dont know the reason why they have gone down this road but they have and they are still a respected name when it comes to streaming at this stage so i feel that bit of extra effort to stream though them is needed at this stage.

 

I do hope they look at ways to improve the process and make it easier but i still still the need to stream via them so i put up with it for now and as an admin of a large community i have to do the best for the community and that is the end verdict in the matter what is best for my community.

 

Wildroo...

[1220_Moppi]

I agree, too. It is the first time we want to stream with PBBans and it is not possible, because the new public section in our forum we made especially for you, has no posts. Where should they come from? We made this last night? We just want to have some security on our servers and I can't imagine what forum posts have to do with that. Of course you want to see activity, but therefor we would have to open our closed section with internal information. You can't seriuosly demand that. As I have no rights to edit our website, I have to wait another day to begin streaming. I clearly think about letting well alone. Is there a chance to get an account with without any posts in our public forum?

 

Greetz Moppi

[surfy]

I dont know the reason why they have gone down this road but they have and they are still a respected name when it comes to streaming at this stage so i feel that bit of extra effort to stream though them is needed at this stage.

 

 

Did you even read this?

http://www.pbbans.com/forums/streaming-requirements-t147669.html/

 

Yes other streaming providers may make it easier to stream, they also have corrupt banlists at the very least. Maybe people would understand more if their own names got on the MBI through faked bans? If people were affected directly they might understand the implications of what's been said here.

 

If you're happy to share streaming with hackers, corrupt players and cheat developers then by all means think we're wrong and go elsewhere. PBBans is not about numbers, never has and never will be. Just take a look at our slogan. I guess we're going to just have to agree to disagree here.

 

On a side note I've just responded to your ticket wildroo.

 

@Moppi, the best thing I can suggest a few posts on that forum, would only have taken the time you took to write the above post to get some activity on there ;)

[1220_Moppi]

Great, in general I agree surfy. But, if i understand you correctly, it would be enough to see some posts from me to show you our activity? O_o To see our activity, have a look at our photo and video sections. I think, there one can see our activity in form of at least two LAN-Parties every year since 2004. I will see what I can do with our forum.

[fozzer]

http://www.pbbans.com/forums/is-violation-aimbot-50508-false-t144872.html

 

Nothing is going to change re the mandatory streaming requirements,

[LaserSights]

Nothing is going to change re the mandatory streaming requirements' date='[/quote']

 

That part I understand.

[HappyHarry]

Sad thing to see that PBBans is still attacking our and other anti-cheat projects. This shows the verisimilitude of your statement concerning the end of the partnership with GGC.

 

@surfy

 

PBBans got hit a lot of times (succesfully!) with fakeban attacks. Your system is vulnerable, too.

 

@fozzer

 

Anti cheat sites that just require a registered forum account to stream a server.

Anti cheat sites that run no type of checks on the admins and servers that use their services.

Anti cheat sites that have cheaters (and cheat coders) past and present streaming via their services.

Anti cheat sites that allow "cracked" servers to stream

 

Anti cheat sites that allow "home" servers to stream.

 

This is just - sorry - bullshit. We are running lots of background checks to ensure the quality of our service. This includes e.g. check of admins, servers, ban entries and more.

 

Again, please PBB, stick to the truth and inform yourself before blaming others in public. This is no proper way to act with people, especially with those sharing your goal.

[fozzer]

Sad thing to see that PBBans is still attacking our and other anti-cheat projects. This shows the verisimilitude of your statement concerning the end of the partnership with GGC.

 

@surfy

 

PBBans got hit a lot of times (succesfully!) with fakeban attacks. Your system is vulnerable, too.

 

@fozzer

 

 

 

This is just - sorry - bullshit. We are running lots of background checks to ensure the quality of our service. This includes e.g. check of admins, servers, ban entries and more.

 

Again, please PBB, stick to the truth and inform yourself before blaming others in public. This is no proper way to act with people, especially with those sharing your goal.

 

If a person can register on a forum and a few minutes later be able to stream a server, you are vulnerable to spoofed fake bans being added to your ban list ... no bullshit, just fact.

I have a shed load of recent examples but whats the point of informing you when all you do is remove them on the quiet and carry on regardless.

We did get hit back in 2008 that much is true, but we elected to do something about tackling the root cause after informing our membership and outlining the whole issue .... PBBans did not just remove those spoofed, fake bans and carry on as if nothing untoward had happened.

Every streaming service is vulnerable, that is true also ... but those that just require forum registration and are able to stream servers a few minutes later are a thousand times more vulnerable than someone who has requirements in place before allowing streaming.

 

As for sharing goals ... I would disagree with that statement.

PBBans regards quality of service above all else and as you are well aware;

There are valid reasons why "home" servers are not allowed to stream via PBBans.

There are valid reasons why we do not allow cheaters or cheat coders to stream via PBBans.

There are valid reasons why mandatory streaming requirements need to be in place before allowing streaming.

 

Do I need to go on ? (that's just the tip of the iceberg)

You can not defend the indefensible, and until you put your own house in some kind of order you will continue to be hit with those spoofed fake bans on a regular basis .... no bullshit ... just fact.

[MaydaX]

PBBans got hit a lot of times (succesfully!) with fakeban attacks. Your system is vulnerable, too.

 

Every streaming system is vulnerable which is why I stated:

 

Our increased streaming requirements won't completely stop those people from gaining access to our site however it does reduce the risk. Some say what is the point if those people can still get in. Well if someone wants to really steal a car they will but that doesn't mean the owner should leave the doors unlocked and the keys in the ignition because it won't help if a person really wants to steal it.

 

That is also the reason we removed the 32 character GUID on the MPi for clean players. It further reduces the risk of false data because attackers have one less place to gain a list of targets.

 

It was my answer to the OP of why we have strict requirements. It's not attacking anyone, just stating facts of past events.

[HappyHarry]

Well, it's your point of view how to deal with servers and the community. We have a different one and we are well aware of the possible risks. It's also true that we have a lot of counter-measures to protect our system and its integrity. You don't need to support our attitude but please accept it without subliminally attacking us (and other ACCs)!

 

If i were you I wouldn't be too sure that there is no cheater / coder in your community. I've read some forums, were people claim the ownership of a PBB streamed server. As you stated yourself: no system is secure.

[Everson]

Bottom line is any streaming system is insecure.

 

Now when you know something is insecure and you also know there's very little you can do to mitigate that situation you'd normally work on reducing the risk involved - which is exactly what PBBans does.

 

However, (and this has always been a big sticking point) reducing that risk ultimately means ensuring you have some requirements in terms of whom is able to utilize your services. To say that GGC incurs no increased risk through allowing home servers, and known cheaters/cheat coders, to stream "does not put GGC at an increased risk" is tenuous at best.

 

Let's be realistic about the situation it's not an attack to say "blahblah" is vulnerable to attack, it's a fact.

[HappyHarry]

To make it short: You think every server and every person is a bad one until you checked some points (which can also be faked). We trust our users until we've found negative evidence (even before they start streaming).

 

There are always pros and cons and our attitudes won't change. All I ask for is respect and fairness.

[MaydaX]

To make it short: You think every server and every person is a bad one until you checked some points (which can also be faked). We trust our users until we've found negative evidence (even before they start streaming).

 

When dealing with the public you have to in order to protect yourself. Better to be cautious and try to prevent false data from being streamed than to allow it and not be able to find it later. If streaming was completely secure then yes we could allow anyone to stream. However in the real world that simply doesn't happen.

 

Just as banks don't just give out mortgages, loans or credit cards without doing a credit check on the person first. Same idea. It's too late when the person is long gone or can't pay the money back.

 

Hell even EA trusted the RSP system and included debugger files in the BC2 / BF3 server files which got leaked to the public. After that It's too late because those files are then used to help make cheats for those games.

[fozzer]

Well, it's your point of view how to deal with servers and the community. We have a different one and we are well aware of the possible risks. It's also true that we have a lot of counter-measures to protect our system and its integrity. You don't need to support our attitude but please accept it without subliminally attacking us (and other ACCs)!

 

If i were you I wouldn't be too sure that there is no cheater / coder in your community. I've read some forums, were people claim the ownership of a PBB streamed server. As you stated yourself: no system is secure.

 

I've read that there is a mountain range hidden in the Netherlands -_-

 

Here is something else I read;

Rein prinzipiell ist es gar nicht erforderlich beide Streams zu nutzen, da du bei GGC die Möglichkeit hast, die Bans von PBBans mit einfließen zu lassen. Das bedeutet, wenn du deinen Server bei GGC-Stream.com anmeldest kannst du gleichzeit über ggc-stream.com die bans von PBBans in Anspruch nehmen über das GGC Livekicksystem ohne aber selbst dich bei PBBans anmelden zu müssen. Wie das geht? Ganz einfach siehe Screenshot.

and here is what happened as a result;

Ich hab den PBBans Stream jetzt komplett gelöscht bei uns und wollte euren Stream einrichten

Does that look like cooperation toward a common goal ?

Is that showing respect and fairness ?

 

I will continue to point out the proven facts whenever I am asked, as opposed to something I read somewhere .. especially on our own forums.

Like I posted earlier, you can not defend the indefensible.

[HappyHarry]

I've read that there is a mountain range hidden in the Netherlands -_-

 

One proof for that is the past wave of fake bans. -_-

 

Does that look like cooperation toward a common goal ?

Is that showing respect and fairness ?

 

http://www.ggc-stream.com/news/124/PBBans+cancels+Partnership+with+GGC

[MaydaX]

One proof for that is the past wave of fake bans. -_-

 

Think that has been established many times now in this topic alone. Specifically a mass wave of them.

 

PBBans in 2008

 

GGC in 2011

 

Was nothing against anyone just used as examples for the main reason for our strict requirements which answered the OP question. Those mass spoofing events happened, it's fact and is the reason for our requirements. So can we all just move along instead of repeating the same points over and over.