Question about a ban...

[E-Man]

OK - I'm probably going to get flamed to death on this one but here goes. Here's the link to the ban:

 

Ban Details

 

I was kicked from a server because of the g--------ls.pk3 file. (I'm probably one of the people Notorious is talking about in his earlier post. After doing a little research, it seems that the MD5 scan (forgive me if that isn't the correct term for it) considers this file a no-no. The problem is, there were a lot of public servers in the past that had this file as part on an auto-download scheme, which is probably how I and countless others ended up with it. (I know, auto-download is also frowned upon unless you trust the server, but hell, we were all new once and didn't know any better.) Also, servers running PB without an MD5 scan will pass right over this without even a hiccop. My question is, doesn't this mean that there could be a ton of players out there with this file somewhere in their SOF2 install directory, who don't even realize it until they are banned for it from by site like yours? How does one find out if other .pk3 files that were once acceptable auto-downloads are now considered ban risking offences?

 

I'm agree there needs to be a way to deal with the 'less than honest' players that seek out files such as this and download them intentionally, but how do you differenciate between those and the novice that unknowingly downloads what is considered a "known cheat"? Shouldn't a ban for this type of file also require a screenshot showing that the file was actually in use, and not just resident on the players machine?

 

Thanks for your time, and try not to hit too hard with the replies. I'm just a bit confused and trying to educate myself so I can pass what I learn along to the members of our community.

 

Eric DeHosse

 

[NMC] E-Man

Co-Owner / Server SYSOP

http://www.noblecomputing.com

Edited March 30, 2006 by E-Man

[Maester]

This is a very well known cheat.I dont believe any ban will be lifted on this wether it was downloaded on accident or on purpose.The life of pbbans is to go above and beyond what punkbuster by itself can do.Punkbuster scans for known cvars and some pk3's where as pbbans scans for cvars,pk3's,modified files etc they put a little more into pb so you may bypass punkbuster but you wont bypass pbbans with it.However I know your from NMC and I know there story.They run pb one day and not the next the only way to catch most cheaters is to get your server streaming.This allows you to post screenshots of cheaters stream your logs etc and keeps you safe and shows your a proud member of a non-cheating society.However I highly doubt your ban will be removed or they would have to remove everyone else from it (wether it was accident or not).Im not flaming you or anything im just stating pbbans cant be for 100% sure you actually downloaded it off a server or if you downloaded it off a cheat site so they cant remove everyone.My suggestion get a new game and dont download off servers you cant trust.

Edited March 30, 2006 by maester

[Maester]

Also on a second note thats not your first offence for that file thats your 2nd so I highly doubt its gonna be lifted

 

MD5TOOL (#9002) - MD5Tool Mismatch: g--------ls.pk3 (len=32)

[NMC] E-Man (24.131.67.54) (03.27.2006)

LounGe (66.165.108.79:20100)

 

MD5TOOL (#9002) - MD5Tool Mismatch: base/mp/g--------ls.pk3 (len=32)

E-Man (24.131.67.54) (02.21.2006)

LounGe (66.165.108.79:20100)

Edited March 30, 2006 by maester

[-mRx-]

there were a lot of public servers in the past that had this file as part on an auto-download scheme, which is probably how I and countless others ended up with it

I have never heard that any server have had this file for auto download

and for what reason?

 

And as maester say you was kicked 2 times but didnt realise you shouldnt have that file in your sof2 folder

the first time you was kicked....and this info is only what we have from streaming server

 

and no worry no one will flame you here ;)

 

Any way you will have to wait for the appeal

[-RED- Spawn]

Not that my opinion really matters on this. But im happy that pbbans is catching known hackers and keeping the game as safe as possible for people that like to just sit back and play the game peacefully and honestly. However, when you start banning people that have been playing this game for years and were never known for cheating before, shouldnt you ask yourself a question, like was this guy cheating on purpose or was this an honest mistake? I play with Eman a lot and i know he doesnt cheat, and for you too say just buy a new game well where i live here in south florida it took me 45miles and 9 different gaming stores just to get this game not sure why but nobody seem to have it anymore. So its not that easy just to up and go and get a new game so although you are doing your job maybe you could try and find an alternative way to deal with people caught with this file. Maybe a warning first and give them a day or two to remove it if worse comes to worse and they decided they wanted to keep it on there then the ban should take effect. But to ban a player like EMAN i mean wow......lol hes been pretty honest for the past few years and well just think that for a player that has been playing so long something more than buy a new game should be offered to him. :D

Edited March 30, 2006 by -RED- Spawn

[fozzer]

there is an appeal procedure already in place were each case is reviewed and the ban recipient receives a mail of the outcome.

 

i dont know what you mean by "known hackers" .. the object of PBBans is to utilise and enhance the tools PB give us by dissecting hacks for cvars and md5 scan info to catch the not so known hackers :)

 

btw i can buy sof2 gold edition .. brand new from E-bay for £9.90p :P

[E-Man]

I have never heard that any server have had this file for auto download

and for what reason?

 

And as maester say you was kicked 2 times but didnt realise you shouldnt have that file in your sof2 folder

the first time you was kicked....and this info is only what we have from streaming server

 

and no worry no one will flame you here ;)

 

Any way you will have to wait for the appeal

The reason for auto-download, from what I've been told, is because the file is simply a player model skin. It enhances the brightness of a player model, nothing more. I know from my own experience that it doesn't do much, because I have noticed no difference whatsoever since the file has been removed from my system. If I have been misinformed on this, please let me know. Is it possible that there are different versions of this file, with the same name, that might perform different functions?

 

While I didn't want this topic to turn into my appeal, there is one thing I do need to clear up. If you notice in the ban, two different paths are listed to the file in question. The first was base/mp. When I was notified of this via the first server kick, the file was deleted. The second kick lists a different path. This occurred simply because the scan found a backup folder of configs, client side mod files, and maps that also contained the file. I'll admit, that is my fault for not doing a global search to determine if the file was in other locations, but I can't see how that can be considered two offences.

 

Whether or not the file was an auto-download is next to impossible to prove/disprove. With the volume of public servers that have come and gone, there is no way to determine exactly where it may have originated. That's not the point of my question. The point is, how is your average player to know that a weapon shader, player skin, or some other game mod that might have been auto-downloaded, included with a map pack, etc., will not some day be deemed illegal be PB? Shouldn't a tool be developed that would allow a player to scan his/her SOF2 install directory to ensure that nothing he possesses is a ban-able offense?

 

Believe me, I'm not as much interested in having the ban lifted as I am in understanding how the system works, so I can prevent the members of my community from going through this same ordeal in the future. I will say this though; it is my opinion that banning for this type of file, without an evidentiary screenshot showing that the file was indeed in use, is simply wrong. It's as if PB is saying players are automatically guilty until proven....well, with no chance of proving innocence. The same scenario would be you are pulled over by the local police, they search your car and find a gun in the center console. There was a man shot and killed two days earlier. You're automatically guilty because you have a gun in your possession. No evidence required that you were actually the murderer.

 

I appreciate the time both of you have taken to respond.

 

Eric

[fozzer]

if the gun was tested by ballistics and proved to be the same gun then you would be guilty of said murder.

 

if the cheat was on your pc at the time of the scans .... draw your own conclusions

[foxdie]

if the gun was tested by ballistics and proved to be the same gun then you would be guilty of said murder.

 

if the cheat was on your pc at the time of the scans .... draw your own conclusions

nicely said

[Tim]

if the gun was tested by ballistics and proved to be the same gun then you would be guilty of said murder.

 

if the cheat was on your pc at the time of the scans .... draw your own conclusions

You my friend should have been a lawyer :P

 

Eric, we go way back bud ,,, in all honesty the offense is a pretty severe one...I spoke with people here and to really help what would be great on your part is if you could remember the server you actually dl'd it from...If it turns out there is a server out there giving out this type of violation it would help grately not only for you but for other non-suspecters to be aware of this server before more people go through what you have to deal with now. I hope it works out for you but for now the process and appeal take time. PLEASE , try to remember the server name...again, it'll save alot of hardship on un-suspected {non-cheaters} in the future. Cya

[-mRx-]

Every ones opinion mather to us here at pbbans and we listen to all ppl that come here

 

However, when you start banning people that have been playing this game for years and were never known for cheating before,

So just becaue the player have played the game for a long time you think we should lift this ban? :)

you hear how that sound

[E-Man]

You my friend should have been a lawyer :P

 

Eric, we go way back bud ,,, in all honesty the offense is a pretty severe one...I spoke with people here and to really help what would be great on your part is if you could remember the server you actually dl'd it from...If it turns out there is a server out there giving out this type of violation it would help grately not only for you but for other non-suspecters to be aware of this server before more people go through what you have to deal with now. I hope it works out for you but for now the process and appeal take time. PLEASE , try to remember the server name...again, it'll save alot of hardship on un-suspected {non-cheaters} in the future. Cya

Well I'll be damned - I thought from reading a few of your posts I knew who you were. Long time man; too long. You need to contact me via Yahoo sometime. I'd say I'd stop by your server sometime, but it looks like that's not going to happen.

 

Yes, we do go way back, and you more than anyone that has ever been around me should know where I'm coming from on this. I mean Christ, the two of us spent the majority of our SOF2 career fighting against the very thing that I'm now appearantly "guilty" of. It sickens me to say the least.

 

As I've said earlier, with the amount of public servers I've been to, it would be nearly impossible to remember or even realize which server it was, if that server even still exists. That might not have even been the case. It may have been included in a map pack at some point. Since I've deleted all instances of it, I couldn't even find the date it was created.

 

The fact that you say the offense is pretty severe leads me more towards the thought that there are different versions of the same file floating out there. Again, with no way of proving/disproving this, it is not a valid point.

 

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the opinions shared by this forums higher ranking members are pretty much unanimous and steadfast, so I see no point in waisting more bandwidth over something that has already been decided.

 

Again, thank you all for taking the time to reply.

 

Eric DeHosse

 

[NMC] E-Man

Co-Owner / Server SYSOP

http://www.noblecomputing.com

Edited March 30, 2006 by E-Man

[-mRx-]

The reason for auto-download, from what I've been told, is because the file is simply a player model skin. It enhances the brightness of a player model, nothing more. I know from my own experience that it doesn't do much,

If it gives the one using it a advantage over the other players that dont have this file

then its clased as a cheat.

I have seen screens from players using it and its clearly a advantage to me

 

The point is, how is your average player to know that a weapon shader, player skin, or some other game mod that might have been auto-downloaded, included with a map pack, etc., will not some day be deemed illegal be PB?

The auto download thing have been up for a long time now and and the most ppl knows that you should not auto download files from servers you dont know and trust'

 

 

The fact that you say the offense is pretty severe leads me more towards the thought that there are different versions of the same file floating out there. Again, with no way of proving/disproving this, it is not a valid point.

Do you still have the file or have you deleted it

if you still have it send it to me and i will have a look at it ;)

[E-Man]

Do you still have the file or have you deleted it

if you still have it send it to me and i will have a look at it ;)

No - As I said before, the second time I was kicked, I did a global search of my machine and deleted the file. I may have it on a removable drive used for backups, but the chances are pretty slim.

 

You're advantage comment leads me to another point. I've seen what are called 'laser mods', that produce a laser beam from the barrel of the weapon when fired. I've often wondered it this might someday be considered a type of cheat as well.

 

There are also sound mods that change the sounds of each weapon - In other words, make everyone's AK sounds like a silenced MP5. Wouldn't this also be considered an advantage if others do not have the same file?

 

My point on the last two statements is where do you draw the line? I completely understand your (PBBANS) position on this entire subject, but at what point does an honest player, trying to inject some fun and interest into a fairly outdated game, become what others consider a cheat?

 

Eric

Edited March 30, 2006 by E-Man

[-mRx-]

You're advantage comment leads me to another point. I've seen what are called 'laser mods', that produce a laser beam from the barrel of the weapon when fired. I've often wondered it this might someday be considered a type of cheat as well.

Yes the first laser did we ban for i dont know if we do that now

but there is a few on our banlist for that file

 

There are also sound mods that change the sounds of each weapon - In other words, make everyone's AK sounds like a silenced MP5. Wouldn't this also be considered an advantage if others do not have the same file?

What advantage is it with a silenced ak?

 

My point on the last two statements is where do you draw the line? I completely understand your (PBBANS) position on this entire subject, but at what point does an honest player, trying to inject some fun and interest into a fairly outdated game, become what others consider a cheat?

My own opinion is if you use anything like a glowing gun skin or a pk3 that removes the smoke from smoke nades or a pk3 that makes the ppl all red and visible tru walls ...they are all the same for me...those files are made not to look cool/nice they are made for one purpose and that is to have some easy kills

and i dont think its right to make cheats just because the game is old ....is that really what you feel ?

[E-Man]

What advantage is it with a silenced ak?

 

My own opinion is if you use anything like a glowing gun skin or a pk3 that removes the smoke from smoke nades or a pk3 that makes the ppl all red and visible tru walls ...they are all the same for me...those files are made not to look cool/nice they are made for one purpose and that is to have some easy kills

and i dont think its right to make cheats just because the game is old ....is that really what you feel ?

No - That is not how I feel. I feel that if you want to make changes to the game, that enhance the interest and attract new players and server traffic, you should be able to, without worrying that one day the changes you have implemented cause you to be labeled a cheat.

 

When you talk of removing smoke from nades, or removing fog completely from a map, then yes, we are in 100% agreement that things such as those should be considered cheats. Anything that allows a player to see a character model through walls, smoke, etc. is obviously a cheat. I also think that PB should be considering some of the scripts people run as cheats; The lean binds, crouch jump binds, etc. That's an entirely different subject completely, and would require a few more pages of posts to argue.

 

The advantage of a silenced AK, or any weapon for that matter is the player has a much better ability to track players by sound, without worrying about the 10 bullet spamming teammates that make it impossible to hear if someone is sneaking up behind you. Granted, it's not a huge advantage, but as you (or someone) stated previous, it should be considered a cheat because not everyone has the file required.

 

Although like I said, the file is gone and I can't prove it, the more we discuss this, the more I'm thinking that there has to be different versions of the 'GM' file out there. I never had 'glowing' players, or anthing that could be seem through fog, walls, etc. So either the file wasn't actually "applied" while I was playing, or my high initial gamma settings made it tough to see any change. A PB screen shot from the server I was kicked from would show that very clearly.

 

Eric

Edited March 30, 2006 by E-Man

[-mRx-]

No - That is not how I feel. I feel that if you want to make changes to the game, that enhance the interest and attract new players and server traffic, you should be able to, without worrying that one day the changes you have implemented cause you to be labeled a cheat.

offcourse can you do all that as long as you use your brain and dont create crap pk3´s thats only purpose is to gain advantage

 

to bad you dont have the file anymore cause it would be really good if i could have a look at it

[E-Man]

offcourse can you do all that as long as you use your brain and dont create crap pk3´s thats only purpose is to gain advantage

 

to bad you dont have the file anymore cause it would be really good if i could have a look at it

Unfortunatly, I don't have the brain to create the pk3s in the first place. :) So that's a situation that is completely avoidable. ;)

 

I have scanned every removable drive I own, and it's not looking good for finding the file. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) happen to have a screenshot example of this exploit in action? Just for my own personal sanity, I'd like to compare it to other self taken screen shots.

 

Eric

Edited March 30, 2006 by E-Man

[Tim]

E , I can't give you a SS at the momment but I can explain what it looks like...

daylight map shows the guy having a nice glow to him ,,almost like hes brighter then the background...

 

NOW, night time map ,,heres an example...kids toy : lite bright .....take the black paper to the kids toy,,put it on the light bright,,,its all black,,,put a white peg in it w\the light on,,,,,it jumps out at you like theres no tommorrow...thats what the hack does on dark maps ....the player looks like he swallowed a light bulb... :D

[E-Man]

E , I can't give you a SS at the momment but I can explain what it looks like...

daylight map shows the guy having a nice glow to him ,,almost like hes brighter then the background...

 

NOW, night time map ,,heres an example...kids toy : lite bright .....take the black paper to the kids toy,,put it on the light bright,,,its all black,,,put a white peg in it w\the light on,,,,,it jumps out at you like theres no tommorrow...thats what the hack does on dark maps ....the player looks like he swallowed a light bulb... :D

Well if that's the case, although I realize you have no reason to believe me, my player models did not have that look at all.

 

Since this entire incident happen so recently, I've asked the owner of the server where the kick occured to see if he could possibly help with PB screenshots of myself the day of the second kick. My bat sense tells me that I may be grasping at straws, but at this point it can't hurt to try.

 

You know, after all is said and done, the bottom line is at least this whole mess serves as a learning experience for myself and others who might pass by and read it. I'd be more than thrilled if the ban was "won on appeal", but if not, I'd be fine with that as well. I'm sure you'll agree that we're both getting much too old to deal with this crap (Some of us more than others ;) ), especially when there are scumbags out there every day developing the next best cheat that can fly under PB's radar.

 

Eric

[AcE]

I think all has been said, Wait for appeal outcome.