BO Anti cheat communities...

[Ice Man]

Hello all,

 

some of you old PBBans admins and members may remember that I was a former staff member here... Anyways my clan has since moved on to Black Ops because well... it's the lastest COD game and we are finally having some success with it. Anyways I consider myself a pretty decent player. I do pretty well in certain matches and can sometime manage a pretty high K/D ratio and might even be accused of cheating. Over on the gameservers forum they have started a discussion about a "global ban list" for cheaters... As many of you know (or don't know) PBBans and other communities use the ucon method of streaming to gain access to all of your PB servers logs thus being able to verify data such as PBSS, player connections, kicks, ect... Basically this verifies the data is VALID.

 

Some other admins think its ok to start a global ban list in order to stop cheaters including adding bans for no given reason, I just wanted to let you all know that I do not and I sure hope people on here do not support this kind of activity. While this may stop some cheaters you are also risking the ability of adding non cheaters onto these lists. I support the rights of admins to ban whomever they wish but I feel as though they are not supporting the rights of other players in the game that they play with by supporting a system with no verification. I just hope to bring some light onto the issue before anyone on here decides to join one of these communities... Thread is located here

http://forums.gameservers.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=42041

 

Thanks for your time.

[=GoMg=THE__DRIFTER]

For our group that play BO at this point we only remove those special people that create issues; sorry but there is no fast or sure way to guarantee people are hacking or otherwise. If they become a complete disruption to players it is reason enough for a removal and a ban if it continues. It isn't because they cheat as we have no proof. Mainly about balance and while not perfect it works for now. I suspect in 6 months this won't be an issue since once the shine wares off it will die anyway; at least until the next biannual game release.

[fozzer]

I didn't know black ops had anti cheat communities ... it has VAC and thats it.

Sounds like some admins are getting the Treyarch bug and want to ban for the ridiculous, because unless there is proof positive to back up a ban it becomes worthless.

[Kolor]

Yeah not a fan of these witch hunt type lists.

Evidence or GTFO.

[Kite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

 

What all these "witch-hunting" banlists remind me of.

[Duality]

That thread you linked is worrying. Typical witch-hunting mentality though.

[HSMagnet]

lol took them 7 pages of shit

Edited November 26, 2010 by HSMagnet

[surfy]

I wondered how long it would take before someone tried this kinda thing. They'd be better off not buying the damn game instead of making up banlists (based on nothing). Then maybe ... just maybe the developers would get the hint.

 

I'm sure some of them think we just add what we fancy to the MBI.

 

Unfortunately though, where u get admins, you get witchhunts. If it was well thought out then maybe it could've worked but reading through the thread its pretty clear the bans would be based on .. he said, he did kind of thing.

[RsF-Frosti]

I can support a global ban list if they can provide absolute obvious proof. But witch hunts I don't agree on, they put to shame the legit groups.

 

Although I do believe that by utilizing the theater mode, some proof can be obtained by active in game admins.

 

 

[Piggy]

Bro, there's no need for a ban list when you have report a profile feature, cause obviously with my 15th prestige I'm clearly hacking.

[HSMagnet]

imho both demo and theatre mode are useless

 

they do not show every frame, it is condensed like a .jpg image over a .png or something

 

we have already discussed this in our admin group. half of the theatre mode clips make you look like you are cheating .....

 

 

you can not have conclusive evidence if the game edits the info before you get it

[fozzer]

I have already received some true compliments when playing black ops :)

 

Take your cheats elsewhere you f.....g low life

cheating scum

I hope u die of aids u cheating f...k

 

to name but a few, and they were the polite ones I can remember.

I wonder if I will appear on the witch hunters list at some point :scratchchin: :P

 

What I can make out on the whole witch hunt thread (yes I did read it)

A gameserver bod makes a point that VAC bans, and PB kicks, which is valid, but it would only take a flick of a switch type thing, for PB to do exactly what VAC does, to some extent PB is already doing that with the globalguid bans issued for a lot of BFBC2 cheat violations :blink:

In my opinion there is not much difference between VAC and PB as standalone products.

The differences are in what comes with each product and game devs should come clean about the reasons why they choose one or the other and not spout the usual BS they are so fond of trying to blind us with.

They choose VAC because of the vast infrastructure that comes along with it (steam, forums, etc etc etc)

They choose PB because they realise that a lot of admins use sites like PBBans to compliment PB software and so have an instantaneous effect on cheaters (hopefully)

 

I dont know if the cost of VAC is significantly cheaper than PB or vice versa, but I presume that game companies are a business and as such are in it for profit, whatever anti cheat solution is cheaper would obviously yield the game publisher the greater return.

In a similar vein PB should be more willing to acknowledge the fact that the reason PB is held in such high regard by server admins, is because of the efforts and input from third party anti cheat sites such as PBBans, instead of going to great pains to point out that they are not affiliated to anyone at every opportunity (its ok Tony, we do not seek a share of your takings) :rolleyes:

I am fairly convinced that without this input, PB would be in a much worse state than it is at present re game publishers electing to go with VAC

 

That in a nutshell is my personal take on the witch hunt thread as a whole.

[buttscratcher]

imho both demo and theatre mode are useless

I would politly disagree. My first hand experience w/ the tool has been positive.

 

 

 

half of the theatre mode clips make you look like you are cheating .....

 

 

you can not have conclusive evidence if the game edits the info before you get it

 

If as you say half the people "look like you are cheating", what about the other half that obviously are? Would you ignore those as well, if given the oppertunity? A person can quickly and unknowingly backs themself into a corner when speaking with such absolutes.

 

For example, would you want this player on your server?

Its all good, but especially @ 1:30 and beyond.

 

I would agree w/ the witchhunt aspect here, but if there were a way to gather video clips with player name/ID, post them for review and let each server owner decide for him/her self, that would be their right to choose.

 

Does it fly in the face of established practices? Yes, most certanly... But, keeping in mind the growing trend of VAC>PB use by developers, this may in time be the lessor of two evils. We can bitch till we are blue in the face, but those complaints are generally hot air, and self serving. As it stands now, BF3 "MAY" use PB. But the EA/PB homers will have to wait for a calendar year to find out. (*off topic warning - Personally, I have a perverse hope EA goes VAC as well. If for nothing else, to sit back and watch the dogbowl caos - that would surly follow.)

 

(*back on topic) With that in mind, and for those clans playing VAC games, there are limited options in play here. Ignore the demo tool as "useless" as you stated. Or be wary of some ingame situations that doubt could be a factor. But - dont ignore the obvious.

 

If the goal is anti-cheat, then that is what we should focus on, reguardless of what anti-cheat system is being used. There may be a day in the near future that PB (and in turn PBbans, GGC, ect...) are no longer relivant, in a VAC dominated gaming enviroment. When that day comes, will all of you be prepared to go in a new direction?

 

The limitations w/ VAC are present for all to comment apon. But I would not be quick to dismiss the idea of an organized group of people, serious in an anti cheat effort at a semi-local level.

 

I am not advocating the thread posted by the OP, but given the oppertunity to review a demo and decide for myself, I'd take that oppertunity.

 

 

 

Butt

[Ice Man]

I am not advocating the thread posted by the OP, but given the opportunity to review a demo and decide for myself, I'd take that opportunity.

 

Not sure if your talking about actually having a community like that or not. My main point is that there is no data to backup any bans. That's all I'm concerned about.

[MaydaX]

Without some sort of realtime streamed data it would be a failure. Just too many ban happy admins who would submit a guid from another player they have a grudge against.

 

imho both demo and theatre mode are useless

 

they do not show every frame, it is condensed like a .jpg image over a .png or something

 

we have already discussed this in our admin group. half of the theatre mode clips make you look like you are cheating .....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFXFTgytRq8

[HSMagnet]

Without some sort of realtime streamed data it would be a failure. Just too many ban happy admins who would submit a guid from another player they have a grudge against.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFXFTgytRq8

 

that vid even brings out more reasons that the clips from BO can't be trusted

 

and with no streamed data.....

[fozzer]

Without some sort of realtime streamed data it would be a failure. Just too many ban happy admins who would submit a guid from another player they have a grudge against.

 

That effectively is an end to any worthwhile discussion methinks.

Black Ops is stuck with VAC and all the limitations that are bundled with it re anti cheat.

The only ones who can make changes to provide some kind of real time streamed data are, Activision/Treyarch (by switching to PB) or VAC (by providing some sort of secure streamed data for server admin use)

 

Dont hold your breath :P

[buttscratcher]

That effectively is an end to any worthwhile discussion methinks.

*snip

 

Dont hold your breath

Almost :)

I'll keep it quick...

 

that vid even brings out more reasons that the clips from BO can't be trusted

and with no streamed data.....

I know where he found that particular video as well as the context of the discussion, and as I said there:

 

"The video posted by the OP of a guy camped out, is not the best example for the benifit of a demo recorder, but its the best tool we have to maintain a cheat free enviroment (as best we can under the circumstances)"

 

I wont extend a great deal of energy on this side of the discussion, but I am curious why a video of a player seeing/shooting through multiple walls gets ignored - While a stationary guy camped out - sniping people comming to a flag, is the "be all end all" - example of why the Theatre Review feature is a failure, and unusable? Each situation must be addressed on its own merrits.

 

One poor example video posted by him, does not negate examples of blaintant cheats. Ten "questionable" videos could be dug up on Utube, and I would agree those should not be banned. But ignoring the obvious ingame demos?

 

 

 

 

Not sure if your talking about actually having a community like that or not. My main point is that there is no data to backup any bans. That's all I'm concerned about.

Would I join that group? No. I've given it thought, and I would not want to be in a collective of server owners I did not have a relationship with. I also would not want to have a "Master Ban List" I was tied to - without reviewing each ban/demo, on a case by case basis.

 

Would I be open to something, on a 1 to 1 situation with another server owner(s) I've had ongoing interaction/history with? Yes. (with a few qualifiers)

 

"If" the eventual Rcon improvments include a log of player information (Player Name & ID# - when joining/leaving the server) Plus the ability to manually add bans after the fact from Rcon. Yes I would add a player to my servers ban lists, after reviewing any demo I deemed as obvious for a cheat. With that said, I would want to see the server log (SS of, or the file) of the players information from the Rcon - of the server owner. All of which would be hypothetical and dependant on future improvments with either of the current CoD-BO Rcon utilities.

 

 

On a semi related note, (not directed at the OP) nor the topic of - "shared information between server owners"

 

Many of us have been bitching about no demo utility w/ BC2. I will not look a gift horse in the mouth - with the CoD-BO review utility...

 

I am taking the glass is half full route here. ;)

 

 

 

Butt

[HSMagnet]

lol "I'll keep it quick..."

 

 

i can't lower my requirements for banning someone because the devs are stupid & lazy

 

some the clips i am in, that are from my theatre, bear little resemblance to what actually happened

 

now, as far as i can tell /record demos are ok. however, there is no spectate accept when you are dead of a team mate.

 

killing yourself at the start of each round gets pretty damn suspicious to your intended target.

 

theatre mode is not frame per frame what happened. it just seems wrong to go by what it shows

[fozzer]

Theater mode is just a bit of end-user eye candy to sell the game, and real time streamed data is a must for any type of anti cheat initiative.

It's that simple for me :)

[HSMagnet]

Theater mode is just a bit of end-user eye candy to sell the game, and real time streamed data is a must for any type of anti cheat initiative.

It's that simple for me :)

 

yes

 

as always local bans are up to individual servers admins

 

but, without streamed data, i can't see having "so and so said they hack" list